Engaging Pakistan's moderate majority
By Amil Khan, July 22, 2010
Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 10:30 AM
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Only a few miles away from the modern concrete villas and wide roads of Islamabad, lies the shrine of Golra Sherif. Muslims from all over Pakistan visit this spot to ask the buried saints to plead their case in front of God. Poor farmers ask for their Murree Whiskey-flavoured indiscretions to be overlooked. Young female graduates pray for a job. A handful of senior civil servants read the Quran by a graveside hoping God will understand why they keep a mistress. You might even find a feudal landlord or two proving his piety with a high-profile visit.
Political leaders mean little in the everyday lives of 180 million people who, for the most part, live in rural areas and have little to no contact with the government. What counts past the city limits of the large towns are the whims of feudal lords and the spiritual sanctuary provided by Pakistan's traditional religious infrastructure of shrines, soup kitchens and religious schools.
These shrines and the ceremonies that revolve around them are Islam for the vast majority of people in Pakistan, and this is the Islam that suicide bombers declared war on when they killed around 40 worshippers at Pakistan's most prominent religious shrine on July 1. Even as the Data Darbar complex in the heart of Lahore is being cleared of rubble, tensions that have been building for years between the two main Sunni traditions in Pakistan are about to turn combustible.
Pakistan's religious landscape is as varied as the ethnic mix that makes up the population. For the vast majority of Pakistanis, Islam is a religion of live and let live that calls on political leaders to ensure social justice and gives the lay follower plenty of opportunity to exercise and express his or her spirituality thorough celebrations and devotion to saints. However, extremism also has a long history in the area that is now Pakistan. The idea of enforcing Islamic observance through the power of the state gained traction in the subcontinent through Sayed Ahmad, a former student of religion from northern India who travelled to Pashtun lands and roused the tribes to fight in the name of Islam against non-Muslim influence over the crumbling Mughal Empire. Ahmad was a near contemporary of Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, the spiritual founder of the strict interpretation of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia known as Salafism. Al-Qaeda also sees itself as a Salafi organisation.
Broadly speaking, the Sunni majority comprises of two main groupings -- Deobandis and Barelvis. Most Pakistani Muslims might not identify themselves as either. But in recent years, as the influence of extremist ideas has grown, the Barelvis, who often refer to themselves as Sufis, have become the defacto defenders of traditional Islamic practice. Meanwhile, Deobandis, who are ideologically close to the Salafis of the Middle East, are rooted in strict literal observance and are generally sympathetic to those, including the Taliban, who seek to impose religious observation on the masses. The two strands together exercise a massive influence over religious political dialogue in Pakistan.
Barelvis and more moderate Deobandis have come to represent Pakistan's mainstream. But the center ground is embattled. Militants, whether they are Taliban, the anti-Shia Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan or the traditionally Kashmir-focused Lashkar-e-Taiba, are gaining ground by convincing growing numbers of Pakistanis that the ultimate expression of Islam is to follow an unforgiving code that actively hates other religious traditions and condones killing innocent people to make a point.
In October last year, I arrived in Pakistan to work on a project called Karvaan-e-Amn, or Caravan of Peace, which is run by a British Muslim organization called Radical Middle Way (RMW). The aim of the initiative is to bring mainstream Islamic voices to Pakistanis through radio, print, television and the Internet to challenge extremists' carefully cultivated image as the epitome of Islamic practice.
What I found was a community embattled physically as well as ideologically. Sarfraz Naimi, a Barelvi leader, had been killed by a suicide bomber not long after declaring suicide bombing religiously forbidden. At around the same time, the Taliban had started bombing shrines in the former North West Frontier Province, now known as Khyber-Pukhtunkhwa.
In my first few weeks on the project, I helped organize a series of conferences that brought together religious leaders from all over Pakistan and introduced them to high-profile Islamic leaders from abroad. The idea was for the meetings to provide a morale boost to people who were feeling increasingly isolated and to allow them to demonstrate to their followers that they indeed were the majority in the wider Muslim community.
Pakistan's freewheeling media is quick to blame terrorism on shadowy foreign organizations, but the leaders who spoke at the conferences were not interested in passing the buck.
"Of all the terrorist attacks carried out so far, no American culprit has been caught, no one from Britain and no Israeli. All those who have been apprehended belong here. And with great sorrow, I say that they have been men with beards (religious men)," said one speaker, who holds a high-profile position within Pakistan's religious education establishment.
Many of the other delegates thought extremists were much better organised than them and lamented the fact it had taken so long for their leaders to meet together.
One of Pakistan's highest-ranking religious officials said of extremists; "In religious garb they organised hatred into a force. Now it is an organised force. These people are in society... The attacks on army installations were done by their followers who are in the army."
Most of the venerable men in beards and turbans thought they had made a mistake staying out of politics. "The problem is that Sufis left the political arena. We handed power over to the feudals and tyrants," said one. They all agreed that they needed to adapt to their new reality. They needed to organise, to become more assertive and to become relevant to political discussion. They chaffed at being seen to be pro-government, and therefore pro-West. They were keen to demonstrate that killing civilians was no way to express anger or to deal with differences in opinion.
But an influential minority wanted to go further. In the conferences, people made references about "the need for strength," some referred to the need to "answer the Taliban." In a madrassa in the rural hinterland of Punjab, an elderly former Barelvi leader with still considerable influence within the community's nationwide network said Barelvis should arm and organise a militia to take on the Taliban. "Our ideology is lying in its grave. And before long, if we do nothing, our lifeless bodies will be joining it," he said in Punjabi.
Analysts and former government officials I spoke to in Islamabad said armed conflict between the Barelvis and Deobandis would mean death and destruction on a scale that would make Pakistan's present violence pale in comparison.
The attack on Data Darbar makes that scenario frighteningly likely. In Iraq, provoking sectarian warfare was a central part of al-Qaeda's strategy. Although no one has officially claimed responsibility for the attack in Lahore, many analysts suspect Osama bin Laden's organization is attempting to pitch Pakistani Sunnis against each other as well as against other religious groups, and then profit from the bloodbath.
A leading Barelvi figure told me relations between his group and Deobandis were deteriorating. "Things are getting hot. We asked them to condemn the Taliban but they won't. They are distributing leaflets calling for the killing of those who visit shrines... If someone doesn't take action to calm things, we will be seeing violence."
The government is the obvious "someone," but politics makes democratically elected leaders unwilling to upset influential groups. After the bombings, a Deobandi gathering that included a former leading member of the sectarian militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi issued a statement threatening to make the provincial Punjab government pay in the polls if it acted against their interests.
The Barelvis for their part have called on officials to resign for their perceived support of banned Deobandi groups and are organizing protests in Lahore and Islamabad.
As Deobandis and Barelvis face off, a relatively peaceful June in Pakistan looks more likely to have been a brief respite rather than the portent of peace that everyone hoped. The smaller attacks, which hardly ever make the news, have started again. On July 15, a bomb in Khyber-Pukhtunkhwa destroyed a hundred year old shrine.
For decades internal and external actors have been exploiting religious fervor in Pakistan for political gain. That feeling has morphed, evolved, and developed a life of its own. The future of Pakistan will be decided by the outlook adopted by its people. And as of yet, that outlook is still being formed. Right now, despite the best efforts of extremists, the majority of Pakistanis see the core principles of their faith revolving around peaceful coexistence, social justice and community service. If the public sees Barelvis and Deobandi leaders marching their communities to war, the groups will threaten their own legitimacy. On the other hand, if extremists succeed in redefining what is considered "Islamic" and convincing ordinary Pakistanis that differing views of religion are worth fighting and killing over, the consequences will be devastating for Pakistan, and disastrous for the world.
It is not too late to engage with Pakistanis instead of leaving the field open for extremists. But that does mean developing the willingness and understanding to navigate Pakistan's religious environment.
Amil Khan works in Pakistan for Radical Middle Way and writes on issues connected to terrorism and extremism as Londonstani on the Center for New American Security's blog Abu Muqawama.
NO 'moderate majority' to engage in Pakistan
What a hogwash! There is NO such thing as a ‘moderate majority’ in Pakistan.
Not long ago, Pervez Hudhbhoy, a professor in Islamabad University wrote the following:
For three decades, deep tectonic forces have been silently tearing Pakistan away from the Indian subcontinent and driving it towards the Arabian peninsula. This continental drift is not physical but cultural, driven by a belief that Pakistan must exchange its South Asian identity for an Arab-Muslim one. This change is by design. Twenty-five years ago, the Pakistani state used Islam as an instrument of state policy. Prayers in government departments were deemed compulsory, floggings were carried out publicly, punishments were meted out to those who did not fast in Ramadan, selection for academic posts in universities required that the candidate demonstrate a knowledge of Islamic teachings and jihad was declared essential for every Muslim. Today, government intervention is no longer needed because of a spontaneous groundswell of Islamic zeal. The notion of an Islamic state – still in an amorphous and diffused form – is more popular now than ever before as people look desperately for miracles to rescue a failing state.
Even the Pew poll released on August 13, 2009 was an eye-opener even if it tried to put a positive spin on its findings -
1. 64% of Pakistanis consider US an enemy and only 9% Pakistanis consider US a friend. By contrast 57% Pakistanis consider Taliban an enemy and 41% Pakistanis consider Al Qaeda an enemy, the very groups that are supposed to be engaged in killing Pakistanis.
2. Positive attitude by Pakistanis about US caring about Pakistan has gone up from 21% under Bush to 22% under Obama after Obama’s Cairo speech and 23 billion dollar US aid package to Pakistan.
3. 78% of Pakistanis believe that any one who converts to another religion from Islam shall be killed.
So we aren’t talking about a small percentage of extremists who hijacked Islam (Mr Bush’s phrase) or don’t represent the true Islam (Mr Obama’s phrase) but rather about the interpretation of Islam that is mainstream among these people. As interesting as these figures are, the interpretation is even more significant, not only for US policy towards South Asia but for understanding where Western perceptions of the world have gone wrong.
Mr. Martel, the fact that you refer to the article as "hogwash" demonstrates that you have never spent any significant time in either South Asia or the Arabian Peninsula (if at all) and therefore have no understanding of the plurality that exists in these - and indeed all - countries.
You rely on a poll to justify your viewpoint, while Mr. Khan has spent years in these countries, living among the people and doing focused research. What can a poll tell you? How are the questions phrased? Who is asking them and in what context?
I am a Canadian atheist who has lived in various countries of the Middle East and South Asia for the past 12 years and certainly have no sympathy for Salafi interpretations of Islam. But if I were given the choice by a pollster between interpreting the US as either a friend or an enemy of Pakistan, I would definitely have to say "enemy" based on their clumsy, foolish and destructive foreign policy, not just in Pakistan, but the greater region. Does that make me a supporter of Al-Qaeda and terrorist tactics?
It's not the statistics and the news stories that should shape your understanding of a people; it's the experience of living among them and gradually having your eyes opened to to the infinite subtleties that shape culture.
One can engage Pakistan's moderate majority, but it can only happen after removing the immoderate Occupation armies of America from Afghanistan and India from Kashmir.
Otherwise no can do.
lalqila.wordpress.com
Theres no way we could garner much favor in Pakistan without compromising our standing with India. We only want a helpful Pakistan to make counterterror efforts easier. Helping to create a strong India is one of the most important endeavors for our long term future. I think the choice should be easy.
America giving preferential treatment to India...
America giving preferential treatment to India at Pakistan's cost is a non sequitur. Pakistan will never allow it.
It would be akin to America's preferential treatment to Jew Israel at Palestine's cost and see what wonderful results America has produced there in the 60+ years of unfairness to Palestinians.
lalqila.wordpress.com
...Is a weird term to use here. The US gave West Germany "preferential treatment" over East Germany. I geuss that term is technically correct if used in its general sense. Yes, I believe the US should support India. If that is unacceptable to Pakistan, well so be it. India's future is far more important to America than Pakistan's future is. India is more stable and more free, and promises to be a major player in the coming decades. Yes, I do think the US should give "preferential treatment" to India, if thats what you want to call it.
The US support of India harming Pakistan is not its goal, but it appears to be an unavoidable cost. I think the US should support India for more strategic, long-term reasons, and I think its worth enough for US to be even less popular in Pakistan. We're already around zero, cant really get much worse.
Pakistan's kith and kin are far more extensive than you realise
Pakistan's kith and kin on the Western side stretch from Afghanistan to Central Asian Republics through Iran, all of OIL RICH Arabia all the way to North Africa; on the Eastern front it stretches through Indian Muslims entrapped in India, Bangladesh, Rohinga Muslism in Burma, Moro Muslims in Phillipines, Malaysia, Singapore all the way to Indonesia. Pakistan resonates with 1.5 billion people because of borderless nature of Muslim thought.
Politically Pakistan is backed by 52 Muslim countries while India only backed by itself viz. 1.
India is more or less land locked in one Subcontinent with about 1 billion people
To give India preferential treatment is to lessen fair and equitable treatment to Muslim countries because of the limited slice of the pie. America has done immense harm to itself in the last 30 years by needlessly prop up an imaginary Muslim enemy and it is not going very well for either side.
Continuing to move investments away from Muslim countries, Pakistan included, will only make matters worse for America in the future.
India is just a five times bigger problematic version of Pakistan economically speaking plus India has a huge proble of caste discrimination with 80% of population totally disenfranchised and India has a huge Maoist rebellion problem which is covering almost 50% of India's states.
India has sold America a bill of goods and America has bought it. I know American companies that are now regretting moving R&D, Development, Test and Manufacturing to India as they are finding Indians HIGHLY unreliable and lazy. Some companies are now even considering moving plants back to Ohio and Indians etc.
At least some American thinkers are removing their blinders and I think you should too.
lalqila.wordpress.com
I agree with your sentiments re India
India does appear to be the better long term strategic player but the US has rarely had a long term view.
Your also going to get nowhere arguing with A. Khan here. He's an internet troll.
So much hogwash such little time....
Please stop stereotyping all 160MM Pakistani's behind a blog post or comment or two. By virtue of that all American's are cowboys who have never seen the ocean. Its ridicolous and more reflection of your inability to deal with complex 'others' vs. your smart worldliness. Fact Pakistan in association with the US created a religous monster that was not indigienous to the Sub-Continent. Were things perfect before then - no but what is? Fact : Today the US is extremely unpopular but right behind them at #2 is the Taliban/Al Qaeda. Why? Because the average Pakistani just wants to be left alone by both evils. The US has not exactly ever had our best interests at heart in the past. Fact. There is a push in Pakistan for moderation, there is a debate, a debate that is often one sided because there is a lot more money and priveleged power st stake to be seen as a dangerous country vs. reflecting the majority viewpoint. The only time religous parties ahve wielded major influence in Pakistan is under US supported dictatorships. Please read and actually encounter a lot more diversified op in teh region before blowing your usual anti-muslim, anti-poor rhetoric. oday only a great article in Dawn by Nadeem FarooqParacha on this conflict, one of many in a series. Try actually accepting complexity once in a while.
America doesn't like complexity
Balck vs. White is a much easier sell for politicians.
Its the most evil non-color
It is not quite hogwash but it is a losing battle
The article has a point and is correct in its assumptions to a point. But alas, the tide started turning since Mohd. Ali Jinnah called for Direct Action and it was completely lost by the time Zia was done.
Indeed a majority of Muslims in pre-partition India believed in their own eclectic version of Islam. The one that had ethos of their Hindu/Buddhist past. It was a colorful blend of of shrines, mannat, singing, poetry and ecstacy. It allowed for a Muslim to refer the Hindu God/King Ram as "Iam E Hind" without becoming an apostate. Where the Shahada "La Ilaha" was meant to pronounce one-ness rather than exclusivity.
But ironically Jinnah, a non-practising political Muslim changed that. In calling for Pakistan, he stressed a Muslim identity separate from or above that of an Indian identity and that created a space for "Arbization" of South Asia's Muslims who called Pakistan their new home.
In fact, majority of Muslims that migrated to Pakistan were the more "secular" more enlightened ones. In fact, the more Deobandi Jamat-e-islami opposed Pakistan. But the premise under which Pakistan was created did not help further secularization. It actually reversed it. In defining themselves by using everything that is "not India" they became more and more literal.
To a smaller extent, reverse happened to the Muslims that stayed back in India. Though socially conservative, just living in a pluralistic society nurtured their basic human instincts of "live and let live". The democracy, however imperfect allowed an outlet to their grievances, the necessities of cohabitation and business interests moderated any sharp edges and we have a by and large peaceful coexistence. The social climate encouraged a more liberal interpretation of their religious text. They still hum "Majhab nahi sikhata aapas mein bair rakhna)
What Jinnah unwittingly started was exacerbated by politics. Islam because a refuge for scoundrel of every stripe and the elites took the cry "O Musalmano Musalmaan bano" ( O Muslims, become Muslims)
Losing Bangladesh, a more moderate a more pluralistic part of the country further accelerated this process and the Policies of Zia combined with the toxic textbooks and socio-political environment took this populace away from south asia and firmly into the Arab middle east. The appeal of Pan Islamic identity came entrenched their Iqbal said "Chin O Arab Hamara, Hindosta Hamara, Muslim hain hum watan hain saara jahan hamara"
If you do not believe , just get into a discussion with an average middle class Pakistani and he will tell you how his ancestors came from Syria or Turkey or Iran
Now they have boxed themselves in.. any attempt of moderation are met with cries of "anti-Pak" "Anti-Islam" accusation. Any attempts of reform will be put down with vengeance. Even straightforward fights like those against un-Islamic things ( but perceived to be Islamic by idiots) like honour killings and full-Burkha are met with the wrath of Mullahs so questioning the basic tenets of Islam is totally out of question ( Like it routinely happens in Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist societies.. a chief minister calls "Ramayana" fiction and it is hardly a front page news)
The only hope left for the country of Pak is some kind of internal revolution. some charismatic leader who calls this bluff. One who gets this nation away from habitual paranoia. Either questions or re-interprets the Islam of the Deobandis...
This has to happen from within. Not from outside. If that happens that will be the last day of Pakistan as we know it, she will go back to live with her sister India. and Then we would have come a full circle since Jinnah called for Pakistan.
The way to win is actually 2 fold. First ignore the elites and middle class; collectively they make no more than 20% of the population. If they want to come along for the ride let them but ignore their political rumblings. You actually have to break them - by putting power in the hands of the masses. The uneducated masses that the rich/middle class abuse and constantly decry for being uneducated. Those are the ones who attend the Sufi shrines and have the maximum live and let live policy. Democracy is hated, literally HATED, by almost everyone who is educated in Pakistan (barring a minority) because it does this. This is the long term plan - 5 to 10 years with governments voted in and voted out. The short term one is FOCUS on basic governance. This is a huge failure. You want middle class, lower classes support - give them a reason to care. Currently military or non-military govt who cares, you still have no electricity, no security etc. Pakistan is concerned about domestic issues the whole foriegn bit is actually a distraction. Islam, the Saudi inspired one is a panacea as most Pakistani's are helpless to affect governance. Show Pakistan that the world/US cares about Pakistani lives via visible investment. Dumbest thing that happened recently - the US Aid bill on economic assistance etc. is hung up n Congress but the F-16s came. You know if teh opposite had happened, the US woudl be better off. Yeah the militray and politicans would complain (the latter half heartedly) but the impact on people woudl have been positive and woudl have paid out. This was teh mistake throughout the Musharraf years. The Pak military wants the people to not care about US help, it works the legend well - The military is the only bulkwark against an incompetent political class and hostile mass population.
Thank you dear friends for your kind and rational thoughts
otherwise this section used to turn up into a cesspool of unimportant rants.
"she will go back to live with her sister India. and Then we would have come a full circle"
Not in a thousand years.
Pakistan has seen the thuggery of Hindoo bania up close, payed for it in life, blood and treasure and it will never have anything to do with the cunning Hindoo bania again.
lalqila.wordpress.com
The way to win is to decrease the influence of the Pakistani military and the ISI. They are the institutions that have lead to many of Pakistans troubles through misguided strategic aims.
Lead to the lack of education, bad budget spending, militarization of groups etc etc etc
I'm not sure this is going to be possible, it would take the Pakistani's themselves to do it or total military failure in another war. I doubt anyone can coerce the country into change as Obama is trying to do.
You have to curb the 'security state' mindset of the nation. he bad news the Pakistani people cannot do it on their own. The security state we have is extremely advanced - they control (either directly or via proxy) the media, all aid inflows and even the education system. From the day I was born I was systematically taught that the Army can do wrong, if it wasn't for them Pakistan would be gone. Its very hard to counteract the foundational years of what you have learned as 'history'. To top it off the political class is very weak and as stated self absrobed - the status quo suits them. Note when the army comes to power to 'right' the political class even though they are dictators they never take the hard long term decisions such as land reform, education or even structural economics. They are smarter than you realize. The pressure has to come from outside, it has to be consistent and it has to be military focused (ie. pressure on the military not military action). The good news is this can work - the military is unsustainable and soem of them are now starting to realize that. You can't buy fancy F16s if you don't have the money. Stop funding them now! Only offer economic developmental aid, only offer agricultural trade agreements - refuse to engage Pakistan on military assistance. And if the ISI resorts to proxies, expose them fully. Shout out the links the ISI has and braodcast them into Pakistan - bring them into the light. Its a slow process but it'll work.
1) "For the vast majority of Pakistanis, Islam is a religion of live and let live that..."
Islam perhaps. But "vast majority of Pakistanis," I don't know about that. The Pakistani state, through agencies like the ISI, has had a policy of radicalizing and then arming their own citizens against not just other "enemy" nations, but even non-majority groups (like Ahmadiyas or ethnic Baluchis). Unless the vast majority implicitly, and explicitly, supports that there's no way a state can continue to do this for over 30 years. As an example, India helped radicalize Prabhakaran and looked the other way when he bought arms. But in a few years time, after realizing that public support was vanishing (even within the state of Tamil Nadu), India stopped helping, started hindering and then (last two years) actively prevented LTTE from smuggling arms into Jaffna (which I might add, was really why the SLA was able to militarily defeat them).
2) "But in recent years, as the influence of extremist ideas has grown, the Barelvis, who often refer to themselves as Sufis, have become the de facto defenders of traditional Islamic practice."
I do not see any evidence of this so-called defense. If anyone watches/reads popular media in Pakistan, both sides of the "debate" feature people with similar extremist opinions egged on by an angry compére. Where exactly are the Barelvis defending their supposedly traditional and real Islamic practices? When 10 gunmen killed 160+ people in Mumbai, I did not come across ANY mention of ANYONE in Pakistan expressing sadness or repulsion. No one even condemned the killings (except the official Pakistan foreign spokesperson). Yet everybody and his buffalo was busy rejecting the idea that these 10 killers were Pakistanis (or muslims). Where's the soul searching? Besides, this wholesale blame on Deobandis surprises me. It's too easy. ["Oh, it's those damn Deobandis again!"] Both Deobandi and Barelvi schools originated and are still flourishing in India. (In the towns of Deoband and Bareilly in the state of Uttar Pradesh.) But I don't see their students, who actually study there every day, indulging in mass killings like these 'disciples' in Pakistan are. As another post here suggests, Pakistanis seem bent upon proving that they are more Muslims than the Arabs, and that they've descended directly from the Prophet's clan. That's why they go out of their way to deny their Indian/south Asian origins. That's also why they're busy purging some of their own whom their leaders have defined as less Muslim. And that's why one hears statements like "The first Muslim nuclear bomb" referring to the atomic bombs owned by Pakistan. I haven't heard anyone call the American bomb 'the first Christian nuclear bomb' or the Chinese bomb "the first atheist nuclear bomb" or the Indian bomb as the "first Hindu nuclear bomb."
If what the author describes can really become a movement, it'll be one of the best bit of news for the world, not just for Pakistan and South Asia. But reading this piece doesn't fill me with optimism. The project that the author describes sounds more like a junket for a few theologically-minded intellectuals who love listening to themselves speak. I bet the meals and transportation were paid for.
As Hannah Arendt said under conditions of tyranny it is far easier to act than to think.
And there is no greater tyvanny than the American/Israeli/European Occupation/Neocon Neocolonisation.
The suicide attacks are the consequent Hannah Arendt "act".
Think about it.
Regarding Islamic Bomb vs the Christian Bomb; how did the nuclear bomb proliferate from America to England, France and Israel in a matter of few short years if it was not out of Christian love and brotherhood. You don't have to call it a Christian Bomb or White Bomb, but it is still that.
lalqila.wordpress.com
And you'll realize why standing up is easier said then done. The extremists can and will beat you and kill u. The police is incompetent at best, bought off at worst and impotent in reality especially as all the religous parties have guns and connections. Its bloody easy to buy a gun in Pakistan unless you are a liberal or a moderate. Everyone knows this - the religous parties have no support but what is called there as 'street power'. They can shoot, fight and burn stuff down with near impunity. The closest rival they have from the secular side (If you can call it that) is the MQM which is repeatedly cracked down and frowned upon by the ARmy and ELites even though it has much more support albeit mainly in Karachi. Unfortunately this party has key limitations built in such as sectarianism and criminal links. Net net who will protect you if stand up for what you belive in in Pak? No one, but there are plenty of well connected, 'mysterious agency' benefactors for the extremists and criminals.
how could you quote a joooo ? have you lost all senses ?
new to this site.. so forgive if I am redundant
I saw this post from A. Khan III and think it is misguided at best or delusional at worst
He talks about Pakistan being the kin of 52 countries and 1.5 billion people.... I am not so sure of that.... Even editorials in Khaleej times and AlJazeera do not seem to take kindly to what is going on in Pakistan. Let alone Indonesia, even Pakistan's estranged twin Bangladesh is closer to non-Muslim India than to Pakistan.
His assertion that India is more or less land locked" is factually incorrect..
Look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_length_of_coastline
With around 7000KM of coastline it is 19th among the nations. That's not how geographers or cartographers would define "more or less landlocked"
If he thinks people in Muslim countries think Pakistan to be their brother, Sorry but numbers do not back that.. even a core Muslim country like Dubai, India is 3rd or 4th trading partner Pakistan does not figure in top 10
( all 10 are infidels, so much so for the Ummah!)
http://web2.dubaichamber.ae/pdf/reports/Dubai-Foreign-Trade-Over-Years.pdf
( Look at table on page 16)
"India is just a five times bigger problematic version of Pakistan economically speaking"
Most of the projections see a different trend. India seems to be trending upward, though it needs to look at China and work even harder, it is set to be 3rd or 4th economy in the world. And It hopes Pakistan starts trending up too.. Counter-intuitive it may seem to Mr. A. Khan's line of thought, but it thinks a prosperous Pakistan is in its interest. Not a militant one.
plus India has a huge proble of caste discrimination with 80% of population totally disenfranchised
Partially true. The cast discrimination is a big problem. But the beauty of democracy is such that instead of disenfranchising groups, it is actually creating franchises among them. Those franchises are in turns weaving cross threads of intertwined interests.. by creating alliances. This in-turns strengthens the society. Is it efficient? Nope! That's why it can not compete China. But It is a uniquely Indian solution to an uniquely Indian problem!
and India has a huge Maoist rebellion problem which is covering almost 50% of India's states.
Worrisome again, but not 50%. By area it is present in about 20% of landmass. The affected population is much less than that.
India has sold America a bill of goods and America has bought it. I know American companies that are now regretting moving R&D, Development, Test and Manufacturing to India as they are finding Indians HIGHLY unreliable and lazy. "
Actually, despite the peak unemployment, the Indian IT firms are posting gains. Google is recruiting in India and so is Microsoft. But again, today's gold standard is China. The Indians will be the first ones to tell you, they need to do more a whole lot more to even begin to close the gap with China.
Call centers moving back... sure it happens it is economics-pilitics and strategy all at play....There is in-sourcing. even Tata Consultancy is creating jobs in Ohio
but that's how trade works. I am not sure If should even dignify your blanket comment about a whole "nation" being unreliable and lazy.
At least some American thinkers are removing their blinders and I think you should too.
With respect to India Americans did have blinders. They had elephants and snake-charmers painted on the inside. That's how they saw India. They seem to have taken off those blinders and seeing India for what it is. A Country with a billion plus people with all the challenges and opportunities that they bring. A major player to be given a seat at the table. Not because of its nuisance value but because its impact. (quiz: can you name a couple of countries with huge nuisance value?). The general consensus seems to be it is more of an opportunity than challenge.. At least that is the wisdom du-jour
Delusional is India which wrong-headedly thinks...
Delusional is India which wrong-headedly thinks that is going to become a super power.
Well, Pakistan knows India too well. India is going to stay half naked and poor for the next 1000 years.
lalqila.wordpress.com
Cunning Hindoo banias telling Pakistan what to do or ...
Cunning Hindoo banias telling Pakistan what to do or telling Muslims how to practice their faith. It is unbelievable.
Do the Pakistanis or the Muslims tell the Jew, Christian or the Hindoo how to live or practice their respective religions; of course not.
What right these two penny pseudo-intellectuals have to come come to Pakistan specific boards and spew their daily ugly propaganda?
Nobody from the Muslim world would ever take such poison-laced bad advice and propaganda from these idiots.
Why do they even try?
They can't convert Muslims in a million years. So whats the point. Why don't they go to a Hindoo forum and and say whatever to each other instead of pushing their mollycoddling nonsense here?
Pakistan is like the homeowner that breeds in his backyard ( the FATA and Afghanistan ) a vicious pit bull ( Taliban, Al Qaeda ,. ) which attacks neighbors ( the US on 9-11 ) but refuses to control his pet himself ! When neighbors want to muzzle this vicious animal, the homeowner ( Pakistan ) actually wants them to pay up ( 100s of billions so far ) before he would allow them to get to his backyard to fix the dog ! When foolish neighbors ( first Dubya but now Obama as well ) agrees to such an outrageous blackmail the homeowner ( Pakistan ) starts breeding more pit - bulls ( LeT, JM who sent the Times Square Bomber ) because he now sees a way to extort even more loot !
During his 2008 campaign Obama wanted us to believe that he understood the root cause of Terrorism & instability in Afghanistan. After getting into the White House he gave us his grandiose AfPak policy that was supposed to solve it all. But in spite of spending mega billions and 500+ US lives over the last 1.5 years has so far failed miserably. It is now clear that Obama does not have a clue and has been snookered by the wiley Pakistanis who have exploited Obama's inexperience, insecurity and personal vanity ( the Messiah ! ).
Not many know that while at Harvard Law, Obama was befriended by Pakistanis and visited that country - all expenses paid by the Pakistani Govt. ( using some of its US foreign aid in the '80s to recruit sympathizers ). This is at the root of Obama's distorted assesment of Terrorism in Afghanistan and mollycoddling of Pakistan. Giving more aid to Pakistan in the vain hope that it will finally behave only feeds the beast that lies at the heart of Pakistan. Obama has been unnecessarily soft on the ruling elite and Mullahs of Pakistan - a country that was created by political Terrorism & ethnic cleansing and has ever since made its state policy to use Terrorism and Nuclear blackmail as its main earner of foreign aid and influence.
Unlike most other Islamic countries, Pakistan has an English speaking and " westernized" facade including the Pakistani Journalists who ever since 9-11 have been dining out on interpreting Terrorism to the naive / vain US. This makes it easy for Pakistan to interact with the US and perpetuate the false hope that it would be possible to somehow reason with them or buy them off. It is foolish and impetuous of Obama to even think that he can reform two - faced Islamic states like Pakistan. What is needed urgently is to quarantine Pakistan, its sympathizers in the West and make the whole lot irrelevant.
To win the war and drain the swamp in Afghanistan it is imperative to find an alternative route to Afghanistan - if necessary through C. Asia or even Iran. It is also necessary to break the nuclear nexus betwwen China and Pakistan by making China's ability to continue its massive trade surplus to the US on its agreement to pull back from its dangerous liaison with Pakistan.
Standard indian propaganda and wishful thinking
Just remember that Pakistan will never let India succeed in any of its misadventures.
lalqila.wordpress.com
poison laced advice and other musings of Mr. Khan
Get educated, reform feudal system and teach your children to excel = bad advise?
"Nobody from the Muslim world would ever take such poison-laced bad advice"
And then you wonder why the golden age of Islamic achievements ( the enlightened kind, not the marauding kind) is long past?
"They can't convert Muslims in a million years."
Who wants to convert Muslims? I did not see any Christian missionaries here posting. One can not convert and become Hindoo. It is almost like saying I am going to convert to become "Quantum Physicist". It is like you become one when you get it! Get it?
Mollycoddle= pamper. ( the love kind; not the diaper kind!)
How is anyone mollycoddling anyone? People are either calling people names back in response to your venom or trying to have a dialogue with each other.. how is either one mollycoddling? However some of us seem to treat this space as a baby would treat its pampers. ( in case the metaphor is not clear, baby uses its diaper to excrete its body waste)
Mr Ahsen, the bad news is you gotta do it yourself.
Mr. Ahsen,
I do not think change can be brought from outside. If it is ever done, it is not a lasting change.
British could have made hundreds of laws that reformed social ills in Hinduism. It took a battery of baniyas ( Jinnah's Hindoo bhais ) Rajaram Mohan Rai and Ambedkar and Gandhi and so on to even begin the real change.
Outsiders can only do "consulting" by providing templates. If they get on the ground, the populace will be manipulated in crying " conspiracy against Pakistan" or worse yet "Islam Khatre main hain"
So you need your Hoodbhoys and Jehangirs. Pal, I feel for you and wish you the very best. We would love to trade goods with you rather than arms.
Mr. Khan
India and Pakistan are sisters by virtue of shared geography, culture and even blood. so that is just a historical fact one may or may not like. This may boil your blood, but only kith and kin you have are India and Bangladesh ( and to some extent Afghanistan, the Pashtun part)
All those 52 kins you talk about do not even allow you a visa free entry. Heck they do not even issue you visas easily.
Many of those 52 would even treat you as Ajlaf.
Living with each other means living side by side in peace.
Do you sincerely think any Indians want Pakistan to politically merge with India. Indians like good fences with Pakistan. That's how good neighbours are made. That's what your baniya Jinnah wanted in the first place. Ask your history teacher if you do not believe me.
Frankly, if both nations are enlightened, economically prosperous and psychologically secure, who cares what the two bit politicians say any way?
Pakistan is not willing to forgive or forget Indian machinations
"if both nations are enlightened, economically prosperous and psychologically secure"
Pakistan is not willing to forgive or forget Indian machinations regarding the following:
(a) Moth Eaten Pakistan
(b) Junagarh
(c) Manavader
(d) Hyderabad Deccan
(e) Kashmir
(f) East Pakistan
(g) Pushtunistan movement
(h) Baluchistan Liberation Army
(i) Sindu Desh
With friends like India who needs enemies.
Stop giVing money and aid to the Pak military. Its as simple as that. The military is almost always supported by the US and Western aid money. Its funny - the biggest obstacle to Western aims to fight terrorism and create a Pak-India peace process is also the biggest recipient of Western aid. The military is addicted to Western aid, seriously considering we just finished a 15-20 year ban on military hardware, woudl you really buy F16s or seek another more reliable supplier? The Pak military is addicted to the West, for all of its crying about Western/non-Islamic influences there own kids are all studying in US based on colleges and where possible thats where they aspire to retire to. Stop supporting the military and provide only developmental/education reform/trade based aid.
AEHasan- I agree. Almost Given up on you A Khan
AEHasan
I agree on the outside arms. Just as I proposed "effective inaction" on Pakistan's part WRT Kashmir, I think it would be good for India to practice effective inaction on Pakistan's Internal politics because anything India scorns in there becomes golden internally.
India should only quietly cheer people like Mr. Aehasan who are trying to do right by their country. Exuberant lovefests of people-to-people contacts and goodwill ambassadors and Melas and cricket matches will only create false sense of brotherhood. India should ignore Pakistan as much as it can. Let the Pakistanis calibrate their own position vis-a-vis their older brother. Lets the Khans and AeHasans sort it out. If they want to be friends, open your arms (with caution of course) If they want to be enemy, load your gun and raise your guard. If they just want to be neighbours with their face turned toward middle-east, wish them luck and turn away your face.
( Only exception to this rule should be the divine voices of Ghulam Ali, Nusrat Fatteh Ali Khan, Abida Parween and Mehdi Hasan.. If Pakistan tries to stop Indians from buying their music, go to war :-) Kidding ofcourse!)
Mr. Khan, I think I will stop engaging with you soon since you refuse to have a constructive argument.. I read your list of a through h.. Please study those contentions from both angles and you will find none of it is as black and white as children are being taught in Pakistan ( and admittedly to a lesser extent in India too) History and Politics are conjoined. separating those is near impossible. You can keep going back to injustices and will only find layers and layers of grievances. One of the legitimate ones might even be "forceful conversion of you great great great grandfather! ( Boils your blood again does it not? Boiling ones blood is easy, keeping it cool is not)
when it comes to AfPak Obama has it bass ackwards
He seems to be parroting Pakistan's hogwash that Afghanistan not Pakistan is the source of all Terrorism and to prevent Pakistan's Nukes from getting used against the US, we must cater to any of Pakistan's blackmail.
Ri-di-cu-lous !!
Obama and his minions ( e,g. Holbrook ) ought to remember that if they try to appease the Pakistani monster by feeding it smaller fry like Afghanistan ( and try to make night look like day so as to claim quick progress within a US electoral cycle ), then sooner or later the Pakistanis will come back to strike at the US itself - perhaps with covert assistance from China - their so - called " all weather " ally !
You are conveniently forgetting...
You are conveniently forgetting that Pakistan sided by America and the West during the 1950's via SEATO, 1960's via CENTO, 1970's and 1980's by defeating the Soviet Union and its invasion of Afghanistan, 1990's by dealing with the Afghan chaos single-handedly whilst coping with 4 million Afghan refugees whilst America and the West absconded from the scene, 2000's by controlling the Taliban etc.
You are also conviently forgetting that India in all those decades was on the wrong side of history in every definition of the word.
lalqila.wordpress.com
too much bad Karma.
In his second term Obama will neuter Pakistan
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