The AFPAK Channel
Inside the war for central asia Twitter Facebook RSS
Daily Brief Latest from the Blog Latest from FP

The forgotten front

By Katherine Tiedemann Share

By Joshua Gross

Kashmir is a void in U.S. foreign policy, all the more noticeable for its absence in our diplomats' discourse. Ashley Tellis, a former political adviser in the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi, told journalist Steve Coll earlier this year that the best advice for the Obama administration was to "keep hands off." The conventional wisdom holds that prospects for peace are too fragile for a ham-fisted American mediation that pushes India and Pakistan too hard, too fast. In a region where capitulating to the Americans is political suicide, our good intentions would surely backfire.

However, the "hands off" approach ensures the prolongation of a perilous status quo.  A perpetually unstable South Asia flooded with jihadi groups, with two combustible nuclear powers, undermines U.S. national security. In the interim, American troops are caught in the web of a conflict dynamic that extends far beyond the borders of Afghanistan. The Obama Administration must finalize the next steps for America's strategy in Afghanistan with a regional perspective. In the quest to stabilize Afghanistan, breaking the diplomatic impasse over Kashmir is a necessity, not a luxury.
 
Twenty-four of Pakistan's 26 military divisions remain idling on the Indian border, waiting and watching. They refuse to redeploy to the extremist heartland in the west, even as the country is wracked by brazen acts of terrorism. Although bilateral negotiations have identified shared interests in a settlement on Kashmir, the much-trumpeted backchannel between the two governments remains dormant. History and the high-stakes of domestic politics get in the way of a just and sustainable settlement.

(Read on)

Foreign policy experts are divided over the utility of U.S. mediation. Both Indians and Pakistanis distrust American the motivation behind U.S. involvement. Moderate Pakistanis blame the U.S. for opening the floodgates of extremism through their support of the Afghan mujahideen's jihad against the Soviets. Furthermore, U.S. support of India's nuclear program, despite their flouting of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, reinforced the perception of a double standard that unfairly favored India. Indians -- proud of their ancient civilization and superpower status -- have no desire to kowtow to an American babysitter. Indian analysts argue that a U.S. envoy could not offer Pakistan a better deal than those already offered by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. In an October 29 interview, Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna bristled at the notion that the United States would persuade India to restart talks with Pakistan. "India is an independent country, we take our own decisions...We are guided by ourselves and not by others," he said.

U.S. policy remains timid. The Indian government successfully lobbied the Obama Administration to have Special Representative Holbrooke's overt responsibilities limited to AfPak. Holbrooke has allegedly been pressured to avoid using the "K-word": Kashmir. Indian and Pakistani journalists are adept at baiting high-level U.S. officials into showing their cards on Kashmir, which only encourages the U.S. officials to calcify their poker faces. When pressed this summer, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told an Indian interviewer, "[O]ur role is not to be involved..." Her insistence last week that the United States will not attempt to pilot a solution signals that Kashmir remains a low priority in Washington.  

Now it is time for President Obama to demonstrate genuine faith in diplomacy through a tangible turnaround on Kashmir. The presence of Holbrooke in the region can dramatically enhance the efficacy of U.S. statecraft. In another promising development, Kashmiri separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq has requested U.S. mediation.

President Obama should pave the way toward formal negotiations through close consultations with Prime Minister Singh. The Prime Minister's upcoming visit to Washington will provide Obama with an ideal opportunity to propose a stronger U.S.-India relationship and greater support for more visible Indian leadership in international organizations like the G20 in exchange for reactivating negotiations with Pakistan. A public track would explore water resource management, an attenuation of the Indian occupation, and the expansion of trade and transportation linkages. Concurrently, a reopened backchannel would negotiate the intractable issues: establishing the borders and the final status of Kashmir; a referendum of the Kashmiri people on independence; counter terrorism cooperation to neutralize Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed; and a mutual troop drawdown along the Line of Control that separates the two armies. Throughout this process the United States should not be in the spotlight, but it should have a seat at the table.

Past back channel negotiations have failed when negotiators did not prepare their domestic constituencies for the painful compromises ahead. Political elites must manage expectations in both countries. The U.S. could further bolster the process by employing a routine framework that keeps the parties at the table, especially when terrorists seek to disrupt reconciliation with more 11/26-style attacks. 

Even if American insistence on formalized negotiations is deemed imprudent, a change in tone is needed. Holbrooke should be liberated from his narrow mandate. Such a move would signal the Obama administration's preference for movement on Kashmir.

Secretary of State Clinton's trip to the region this week was yet another example of a missed opportunity to propose a more ambitious policy. Clinton rebuffed Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani's request for U.S. mediation on October 28, a rare demonstration of Pakistani political will. Hopefully, Pakistan will continue to coax a U.S. about-face.

In his attempt to defuse the 1999 Kargil crisis -- the last time Pakistan and India were eyeball-to-eyeball with their fingers on the nuclear button -- President Clinton talked down then-Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif by promising to "take a personal interest in the Kashmir dispute." Now is the time for another visionary U.S. leader to live up to that oft-broken promise.

Joshua Gross is a master's candidate at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. He formerly served as the director of media relations for the Embassy of Afghanistan in Washington. The views expressed are his own.

TAUSEEF MUSTAFA/AFP/Getty Images

 

ZATHRAS

6:46 PM ET

November 6, 2009

A Battle We Can Win?

I'm for fighting battles we can win. Why is Kashmir one of them?

I take it for granted that American interests in the region would be ill-served if we came to be blamed for every act of Indian repression in Kashmir and every act of terrorism by ISI-sponsored Pakistanis within India. Not volunteering to mediate the Kashmir problem reduces the risk of that outcome. Taking the course recommended here would increase that risk, particularly where India is concerned. The increased risk might be worth it if there were a payoff at the end. Why should we think there is anything of the kind?

India and Pakistan do not quarrel over Kashmir because they misunderstand one another. They quarrel because the understand one another only too well. Justice for India means Pakistan gives up hope of ever taking over Kashmir, or at a minimum that it stops sponsoring terrorists to murder Indians. Justice for Pakistan means India gives up Kashmir. That's not a gap, it's a chasm. I'm not disposed to have the United States get dragged into it.

 

GRANT

10:57 PM ET

November 6, 2009

I have to agree on this. When

I have to agree on this. When in power Musharraf seemed to suggest he was willing to come to an agreement with India on this, but even if he was serious it's a moot point now. The Pakistani civilian government is certainly aware that giving up anything in Kashmir would be suicide, and the military can hardly be expected to give up Kashmir when harsh attacks on any separatism is part of its culture. On the Indian end ditto.
Probably the best we can hope for is either a recognition of both sides as a border eventually, or a non-nuclear war where one side is victorious enough to simply take the entire thing. As for the idea of asking the people there what they want, neither side is crazy enough to do that; they know that the Kashmiris want independence.
On another note, exactly how could the United States compel either side to give up anything on Kashmir? It's hard enough convincing Pakistan to actually fight militants threatening the integrity of Pakistan, and we might need India if we actually do decide to oppose China.

 

TRUTHSEEKER

11:04 AM ET

November 7, 2009

Ignorance Abound..

Mr Grant, I suggest you research more on the Kashmir issue before making claims that fail the litmus test..

Pakistan has no qualms with a referendum/plebiscite being put forth to Kashmiris about what they want for themselves.. It has been Pakistan's stance since the U.N passed resolutions on the matter back in the late '40s. India, on the other hand, made a complete U-turn after Nehru's assurance to the International Community that India would hold a plebiscite.. Now it maintains an occupying force of over 600,000 security personnel subjugating a people who want to have nothing to do with India

 

GRANT

5:46 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Actually Pakistan has made

Actually Pakistan has made repeated statements that Kashmir is part of Pakistan based on pan-Islamist theory.

 

SRINI19

11:13 AM ET

November 10, 2009

Who needs to research?

TruthSeeker,
YOU need to get some acquaintance with history before you ask someone else to do some research.

>>Pakistan has no qualms with a referendum/plebiscite being put forth to Kashmiris about what they want for themselves.. It has been Pakistan's stance since the U.N passed resolutions on the matter back in the late '40s.

RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN ON 13 AUGUST 1948
As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
-> We are still waiting for Pakistan to withdraw its troops from all of the State of Jammu and Kashmir after agreeing to do so. The plebiscite was supposed to be held after that. Wonder how the reluctance to vacate Kashmir squares with willingness to hold plebiscite.

>>>Since mid-2008, J&K has been up in million-strong protests against Indian rule.
Please note that if at all,(even that is not given) your statement may apply only to the Kashmir valley. The people of Jammu and Ladakh want to have nothing to do with Pakistan or independence. The valley may or may not want Indian rule but they definitely do not want Pakistani rule

>>There is a reason why India made a U-turn on Nehru's promise to the Int'l Community to hold a plebiscite letting Kashmiris decide for themselves what they want.
-> Does Pakistan not vacating J&K after donkey's years have to do anything with that? Maybe Indians have realised that Pakistan is not sincere.

>>The objectives of natives & non-natives may vary but once Kashmir is resolved, the natives will have no reason to support those who have come to aid them..
Read this article (http://www.gaash-online.com/articles/83/1/Elections-in-Azad-Kashmir.html) about Pakistan asking Kashmiris to sign a clause affirming loyalty to Pakistan and about "A drama in name of elections in Azad Kashmir". Pakistan is never going to let Kashmiris decide by themselves even if India agrees.

 

TALWAR

8:58 PM ET

November 6, 2009

Sigh... Left leading

Sigh...

Left leading ideologues in the State Department always get this wrong.

Kashmir is not the cause of anything, but rather is a symptom of the malaise.

That malaise is the Pakistani military establishment's addiction to the use of jihadists as policy tools.

There's no "solution" for Kashmir that can be forced on any party and for the US to stupidly attempt what Mr. Gross' gross error in judgment would sound the death knell for India-US ties.

Attacks like 26/11 on Mumbai did not happen because "terrorists" wanted to do something. They happened because the Pakistani GHQ wanted them to happen, so that they would get an excuse to not tackle their proxies in the FATA by using the "Look India is about to attack us" card.

People like Mr. Gross should be made to stay in a hotel when the LeT attacks it, and then they would learn the lesson not to justify terror.

There has to be a limit to stupidity.

 

TRUTHSEEKER

11:09 AM ET

November 7, 2009

Hideous..

is the best term I can apply to your comments about the article and its author.. A typical Indian mindset: try to insult and discredit anyone who writes anything practical about Kashmir.. Whether you like it or not, the United States would have to take interest in solving Kashmir, else there will be no peace in South Asia for a thousand years.

Simply making tongue-in-cheek jibes at Pakistan Army, etc by touching up on 26/11 is nonsense to begin with.. but if you want to go down that line; let us also not forget Hindu terrorists active all across India with support from India's military establishment. Hint: the Samjhota Express [train] bombing that killed countless innocent Pakistani civilians. Perhaps you should be made to take such a journey

 

TALWAR

9:02 PM ET

November 6, 2009

Interestingly, the

Interestingly, the India-Pakistan equal-equal verbiage seems to have been dug up from its crypt - from Mr. Gross's garbage above.

"Two combustible nuclear powers"

"Both sides"

etc.

Anyone that uses these phrases should get a lifetime ban from getting a visa to visit India.

 

GRANT

5:48 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Because a nation with

Because a nation with multiple separatist groups, a growing Maoist insurgency, and the most powerful party dominated by a corrupt family is incredibly stable.

 

EDSLEY NEOSON DANIEL R

10:00 PM ET

November 6, 2009

no comments is the best comment

like someone already suggested to Obama, no comments is probably the best stand for the American foreign department to have now.
Already America's support of Pakistan in the war against Taliban in Afghan is closely being watched by New Delhi. Any further interference eastward from its current line of action for US may not produce a desirable effect.
For the first time since independence the Indian government is talking about pulling back the armed forces from the state of J&K bordering Pakistan, to bring back the local calm which is already being analyzed with a strange calm! to mount a US pressure on this would only backfire!

www.danielsrepublic.com

 

TRUTHSEEKER

11:18 AM ET

November 7, 2009

Eyewash..

Since mid-2008, J&K has been up in million-strong protests against Indian rule - while Indian soldiers shot live rounds in to the protesting/unarmed crowds killing 62 Kashmiris.

Pulling out 5000 troops out of a total presence of about 600,000 is an eye-wash and ludicrous at best. Indians cannot agree on how to deal with Kashmir and how to engage with Pakistan. Their politicians say one thing, their army top brass another and their intelligence establishment, yet another.

If India wants to be seen as a respectable rising regional player, it has to act like one. India's actions to date remind me of a line I read some time back: 'India is a big nation that likes to act small'. It would serve India well to learn lessons from two present-day examples -> First, the way Russia and China solved their border disputes in which the bigger country, Russia, agreed to give up land.. Second, the way China solved its border disputes with Vietnam in which China compromised a good deal to satisfy Vietnamese concerns. India cannot continue to act like a child where Kashmir is its lollipop.

 

SREEKANTH

10:36 PM ET

November 6, 2009

>>>Twenty-four of Pakistan's

>>>Twenty-four of Pakistan's 26 military divisions remain idling on the Indian border

So let's analyze why this is the case. Is it because Pak fears invasion and occupation by India ? This fails the smell test. The generation that might have wanted to undo parition and have some nostalgia for the idea of an undivided India has passed on. With a 10% growth rate and a booming middle class, India has nothing to gain from a war.

Or is it because Pak is less a nation with an army and more of an army with a nation, and it is in the army's best interest to hoodwink their people by keeping tensions alive, either through misadventures like Kargil or jihad sponsorship ? Hmmm.

>>>attenuation of the Indian occupation ...a referendum of the Kashmiri people on independence

Your biases are showing. The portion of the old princely state of Kashmir that is defacto held by India today is no more occupied territory than the rest of it that is held by Pak. A referendum over independence at this point is not even on the table; it's not even rational because many former princely states will have to be given that privilege, and many other cans of worms, including Baluchistan, will need to be re-opened.

 

TRUTHSEEKER

11:38 AM ET

November 7, 2009

Typical Indian Mindset..

exhibited by Mr Sreekanth is not surprising at all. That he is not aware of the political reverberations of war or no-war with Pakistan in his own country is a bit unsettling. Mr Sreekanth, its not that your country does not want a war; there are plenty of RSS/VHP bhakts who are itching to 'teach Pakistan a lesson' - but that your politicians, army top-brass and intelligence establishment are split on the subject. For war, you need unanimity.

Questioning Pakistan's status as a nation is an old past-time for many Indians. Its like the myth fed to Indians that Jinnah was responsible for the subcontinent's partition. Since the great Jaswant Singh has slapped Indian academia, political elites and the general public across the face with the bitter truth recently in his book - that it was Nehru who was responsible - lets not get carried away.

The status of J&K is highly different to that of Azad Kashmir across the border. Unlike India, Pakistan does not maintain a choking hold of 600,000 security personnel.

There is a reason why J&K has shutter-down strike year-on-year every 15th of August with almost every house flying a Black Flag while a day earlier on the 14th, Pakistani flags are a common sight much to the chagrin of Indian troops & the stooge J&K govt. I need not remind you of the significance of the two dates I just mentioned.

There is a reason why millions of innocent Kashmiris protested Indian occupation from mid-2008 onwards only for them to be shot at with live-rounds by Indian soldiers that killed many. There is a reason why India made a U-turn on Nehru's promise to the Int'l Community to hold a plebiscite letting Kashmiris decide for themselves what they want.

Bringing up Baluchistan is another common rant from many Indians who obviously have no clue as to why comparing Baluchistan with Kashmir is ludicrous. Mr Sreekanth, perhaps you should worry about Manipur, Mizzoram, Assam, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh, etc before pointing fingers elsewhere.

 

SREEKANTH

11:58 AM ET

November 7, 2009

My point exactly. Once we get

My point exactly. Once we get into this border re-drawing, there's no telling where it will go. For example, Ralph Peters has written about unnatural colonial boundaries, and thinks that Punjab+Sindh belong together, and that's about it.

In any case, national borders are just service delivery boundaries, services being what national governments are supposed to deliver to their people. By obsessing about Kashmir, based on either Islamic supremacism, or straightforward racism about how Punjabis/Pathans are more qualified to rule, Pak has distorted its own development as a nation.

And the Indian establishment, frankly, has no particular interest in being flexible, and can't be pressured into doing so. They may even enjoy watching Pak twist in the wind. So what's an appropriate response from the weaker party here, get on with life, or ruin your prospects of becoming a normal country ?

 

TRUTHSEEKER

12:52 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Wrong..

Pakistan is not obsessing over Kashmir, Pakistan is obsessing over the rules of the game as decided at the time of partition. Your assumption of 'Islamic supremacism' and 'racism' is baseless in that it ignores the basic rule of partition: ALL Muslim-Majority states to be given to Pakistan. It is as simple as that.

India's futile argument of J&K representing 'Indian secularism' is devoid of any practical truth.

The Indian establishment can always sit back and watch Pakistan 'twist in the wind' but that's the problem, it cannot afford to. To present India as a responsible rising power in the subcontinent, they cannot be seen to be mischievous.

However, so far India has done little to assuage smaller neighbors. Pakistan is the only South Asian country that is an anomaly for Indian foreign policy since it is not feeble like Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, etc & hence, it cannot be bullied or bought.

 

SREEKANTH

1:09 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Kashmir is indeed an

Kashmir is indeed an obsession, and any neutral observer will conclude there is a religious motive here. There are multiple smoking guns :

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2009/10/ilyas_kashmiri_speaks_again.php

.....

From the Daily Express article on Kashmiri:

After getting a detailed account of his activities, I asked him: if the Kashmir issue is resolved in accordance with the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, will you and your associates abandon your armed struggle and come to the national mainstream? For this, pat came the reply: "Do not forget the fact that after occupied Kashmir, we have to take back Hyderabad, Deccan, Junagarh, and Manawar from the Hindus."

I gently repeated my question: "Assuming that these three areas will be taken back, then what?" After a lengthy pause, I got the answer: "Look, there will be need for jihad throughout the world. Besides Palestine, Chechnya, and Philippines, wherever atrocities will be committed on the Muslims, we will reach there."

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2009/10/ilyas_kashmiri_speaks_again.php#ixzz0WC7KGgKO

 

TRUTHSEEKER

2:48 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Waste of time..

is what this argument has turned in to.. From discussing Pakistani state's stance & objectives on Kashmir, you have morphed the argument into one about non-state actors and their usual rhetorical fervor..

Obviously, you needed an outlet to side-step all the other points I raised in my previous post.

 

SREEKANTH

2:55 PM ET

November 7, 2009

It's fair to say my quote

It's fair to say my quote doesn't prove anything about the Pak establishment, but it demonstrates what the Kashmiri "independence" movement has become. For example, Tamil Tigers just want a Tamil homeland in Sri Lanka. Kashmiri insurgents want Hyderabad, Bosnia, Palestine, etc. These are vastly different regions historically, racially, culturally and ethnically, the only common tie being religion. Hence my point

 

TRUTHSEEKER

3:05 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Absolutely Rubbish..

Kashmiris are indigenous to Kashmir only.. Obviously it would be naive to assume that all those up in arms in Kashmir are native Kashmiris.. Some are non-native as well.. The objectives of natives & non-natives may vary but once Kashmir is resolved, the natives will have no reason to support those who have come to aid them..

History demonstrates, most Kashmiri insurgents listen to separatist political parties active in the Valley. People like Mirwaiz and Geelani hold immense influence..

By the way, Tamil Tigers didn't just want a Tamil homeland in Sri Lanka. After India had nurtured the Tamil Tigers by arming, training and financing them in the early-to-mid 1970s, the Tigers actually wanted to shift focus to India's own state of Tamil Nadu; hence India made a U-turn on Tamil Tigers, in revenge for which they assassinated Rajiv Gandhi.

Your futile attempt to link up Kashmir to some pan-Islamist plot will only look good on Al-Qaeda propaganda websites and similarly hawkish Neo-Con portals but has limited practicality attached to it.

 

SREEKANTH

4:40 PM ET

November 7, 2009

Tamil Tigers, same

Tamil Tigers, same difference, they wanted an independent state made up out of contiguous Tamil speaking areas in SL and India. Much like Pashtunistan, made up of contiguous Pashthun areas in Pak and Af.

>>>The objectives of natives & non-natives may vary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri_(militant)

Kashmiri came from the Kotli District of Pakistan-administered Kashmir

 

LAHORIJERRY

9:32 AM ET

November 7, 2009

A timely article if there

A timely article if there ever was one...the seperatist movement in Kashmir is unlike any other being faced by either Pakistan or India.there are UN resolutions on it and Indias first prime minister Nehru agreed to hold a plebicite in kashmir as envisaged by the UN resolution.terrorism has no justification period! that does not mean that the whole seperatist movement led by people like the Mirwaiz be thrown out or ignored. secondly afghanistan will not stabilize until and unless relations between india and pakistan become better. its unfortunate for the Afghans but true.Pakistans army is on the borders because there have been four wars with India. There's history which cannot be ignored.Both countries blame each others agencies for everything and anything so to say as that the Pak army is hoodwinking the entire PAkistan nation is ludicrous.American involvement should be there from the point of view of applying pressure on both sides to get to the negotiating table. this issue might seem irrelevant to America right now but if tensions between india and Pakistan are not resolved and without a resolution of the KAshmir dispute they cant worse is yet to come.already India is building dams on rivers flowing through Kashmir.because of that Pakistani farmers have started facing acute water shortages.things will get ugly.

 

TYRTAIOS

10:18 AM ET

November 7, 2009

Whiskey and Water

Good observations. Water - always water. It is possibly one of the under reported and overlooked root problems of the region (and others). Afterall, who'd go to war over water?

Mark Twain got it right, "Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting over."

 

KXB

12:24 AM ET

November 8, 2009

Cause and effect

The U.S. has its hands full with Israel-Palestine, Iran, & North Korea. Adding another seemingly intractable problem to its plate serves no purpose.

Second, there are ways for the U.S. to encourage India-Pakistan talks without direct mediation. It became clear over the course of the Bush administration that the nuclear deal was a not-so-secret reward for India, if it worked towards settling its problems with Pakistan. India kept up its end of the bargain.

Pakistan got seven years of no-questions asked military aid and a promotion to major non-NATO ally - a status enjoyed by more reliable partners such as Australia and South Korea. But, given the continued terrorist attacks within India - Pakistan did not hold up its end of the bargain.

The problem is not lack of U.S. involvement - it is the lack of political maturity in Pakistan. Until it can get its house in order, and decide once and for all not to use terrorism as an instrument of state policy - any agreement between India and Pakistan will only last until the next terror attack.

 

SMCI60652

2:56 PM ET

November 10, 2009

you're right

But it's not just a lack of political maturity. It's an over-abundance of political chaos. It's one of the only Muslim majority countries where someone can speak their mind if their juevos are big enough... and have a reasonable chance of getting away with it.

It's not because of some miraculous love for 'freedom of speech' that this is the case. It's because no one single entity possesses a monopoly of power, including the Army. No one can completely clamp down on all dissent in the country. That's a good thing, but the flip side is that there will (almost) never be a consensus on any single issue, save on popular mistrust and hatred of India.

The civilian politicians and the military establishment have diametrically opposed, and mutual exclusive visions of Pakistan... and both are rooted in unjust exploitation.

And it isn't just the last 8 years of American benevolence, but 60 years of American economic and (laregly) military aid. But to be fair, they stuck their necks out for us several times and got stiffed too, so... everyone's a little guilty.

 

CAPTIVATED OBSERVER

12:28 PM ET

November 8, 2009

What's the rush?

Maybe the solutions for the Indo-Pak disagreements lay in a bit of realpolitik. It's true that both India and Pakistan lay claim to a region that would rather be independent from both. The fact is that this conflict will be become unsustainable for all three parties for different reasons.

India wishes to be recognized as a regional power and a potential global superpower. Part of this shift will entail resolving its border conflicts with Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. I think it probably would benefit more from the economic rise of both Pakistan and Bangladesh as well, as an empowered middle class would prefer peace to ensure sustained productivity gains and secure capital inflows. This will also allow India to concentrate on and pacify internal divisions. For these reasons, it will become obvious to principal actors in the Indian government that the rekindling of hot conflict in its border regions will be counterproductive.

Similarly, the Pakistani ruling elite must recognize that the potential for Balkanization from promoting militant groups will outweigh the risk of a defeat from a direct military conflagration with India. Pakistan's survival is incumbent upon its various ethnic groups putting aside their differences and coming together, whether Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, Mohajir, Pakhtun or the tribal minorities. I'm certain that the general populace and the upper classes see the benefits of direct GDP growth and direct foreign investment, both of which are stymied by Pakistan's military posture, its perception on the world stage, and its ethnic contagion.

Although Kashmir may see itself benefitting immensely from becoming a separate and independent state, the probability of escaping its neighbor’s significant spheres of influence are rather paltry. Considering its devastated infrastructure, the diaspora of its influential elite, and the remnants of conflict fought within its borders, it will require many decades of rebuilding. This would be unlikely without vast resources. I believe this would likely result in this new country becoming a vassal state and again a region of proxy conflict between China, India and Pakistan.

Despite the unsavory nature of dividing an ethnic populace, I believe that the best and least difficult approach is petrification of the existing status quo over future decades. A tripartite solution involving China, India and Pakistan could divy up Kashmir and crystallize the existing Lines of Control. I believe that this will require another 30-50 years of facing each other down across the borders before any of them will have the maturity to realize that this is the case.

 

SMCI60652

4:03 PM ET

November 10, 2009

Right on

It's funny how no one replies to the most level-headed and common sense posts, but seek out the most controversial ones.

Your analysis is dead on, but sadly human beings are just not that rational.

the Pakistani ruling elite must recognize that the potential for Balkanization from promoting militant groups will outweigh the risk of a defeat from a direct military conflagration with India. Pakistan's survival is incumbent upon its various ethnic groups putting aside their differences and coming together, whether Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, Mohajir, Pakhtun or the tribal minorities. I'm certain that the general populace and the upper classes see the benefits of direct GDP growth and direct foreign investment, both of which are stymied by Pakistan's military posture, its perception on the world stage, and its ethnic contagion.

My opinion is that we're a long ways away from the day that a critical mass of the Pakistani people, much less the 'establishment', view militancy as the main threat instead of the existential threat of an Indian invasion.

You're also right in stating that most Pakistanis want economic growth and foreign investment, but it's hard to imagine that the majority of people see their own military's failings as the cause of their woes.

More than likely most Pakistanis view their perdicament as the outcome of the Crusader-Zionist-Hindu conspiracy. I don't have any polling to back that up, but it seems plausible.

 

AHSON HASAN

4:07 PM ET

November 8, 2009

Is Kashmir really a 'forgotten front'?

Kashmir is a madman's story, to say the least. Why on earth would the great powers of the world take interest in this piece of land that has nothing but apples to offer?

Kashmir is a strategist’s nightmare. It is a bone of contention that hasn't been dealt well since the last 60 odd years by India and Pakistan. The Pakistanis like to live in a fool's paradise and insist that even after decades of possession, India should give up its hold on the territory. The UN Resolutions are dead and gone - no one will ever pay attention to what was supposedly 'resolved' back in the 1940s.

Three wars have been fought over Kashmir. Whereas the Indians approach the issue in a much matter of fact manner, the Pakistanis believe that it is their 'religious obligation' to snatch the initiative and make the area a part of the Pakistani domain.

Pakistan's political backwardness stands starkly in contrast to the maturity with which New Delhi handles the Indian affairs. India has a standing of its own in the comity of nations. India's technological superiority, its theater, expertise in IT related fields are a big-time downer for the Pakistanis.

What has Pakistan got to offer? Militancy? Terrorism? Depleted and distorted concepts of the religion of Islam? Unstable political system that has been inconsistent and gives a damn about the common man?

Its time to move on. It is in Pakistan's own advantage to be friends with India. Accept India as the big brother and understand that it is not advisable to keep arguing about a matter that may have been a subject of discussion in the years gone by but no one wants to deal with it anymore.

Pakistan needs to do two things. One, stop trying to engage the world attention to the 'atrocities' committed by the Indian forces in Kashmir. There are no atrocities committed; there are intra-communal issues that are not unusual in a huge and diverse polity, such as India. Don't ask the US or UK for diplomatic assistance to resolve the Kashmir issue.

Two, and perhaps more importantly, stop infiltrating militants and ISI commandoes/agents into Kashmir. There would have been no Kashmir 'Intefada' without Pakistan inciting the local Kashmiri population to rise against the Indian rule.

On the other hand, all India needs to do is open negotiation doors with the recognized representatives of the Kashmiris; provide the region with a little bit of 'extra' autonomy, something short of complete sovereignty. 'Incentivize' the people so that they do not fall a prey to Pakistan's crazy ideals.

As far as the US adding Kashmir to its already long list of worries is concerned, please give President Obama a break! He is so immersed in the issues to do with Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq that it is really not worth it at this point in time to lose sleep over Kashmir.

It is integral for the future of almost 1.5 billion people of South Asia that India and Pakistan make peace with each other. A lot of bloodshed has taken place and a lot more can happen if this Pakistan orchestrated ‘freedom-movement’ is not put to a halt effectively.

One hopes that India and Pakistan open their respective borders, adopt liberal visa policies, exchange information regarding any insurgencies/insurgents, and affect some sense into this rather paranoid exercise of blaming each other. More than anything else, Pakistan should stop acting like a cry baby. Grow up and move on, Islamabad!

 

SID

11:54 PM ET

November 8, 2009

Kashmir Problem

No one talked about the rights of people of Tibet, including the then foolish ruling party of India, when it was brutally taken over by Chinese. If today Kashmir is decided on plebicite then what will stop Pakistan & its big brother China from egging other Muslims in India from asking plebicites all across India? Anyway, what would be a friendship with Pakistan entail for India, except import of terror form its ideology of sponsoring militanancy?

 

GAURAV SHARMA

5:27 AM ET

November 9, 2009

only solution..

Us interference in Kashmir would be looked at with a lot skepticism on both sides of the border. India views constant US aid to Pakistan with suspicion as time and again Pakistan has used it to improve its arsenal against India. It is hard to believe somebody would need an AWACS to perform counter insurgency yet Pakistan wants it. It also wants more F-16s to probably neutralize Taliban's air force.
On the other hand Pakistan mistrust is not ill founded. At some level they know that if they finish off Taliban in Pakistan then US policy maker would leave them high and dry as they left the mujahedeens in Afghanistan. US policy makers would first need to win confidence of both sides with a credible long term strategy. So at this point, it would highly ill-advised for US to mediate a politically charged issue like Kashmir.
People of both countries are emotionally attached with it and any democratically elected government (especially in India) would immediately lose mandate of its people if it agrees to lose any ground in Kashmir. As far as UN resolution on Kashmir is concerned it is history.
The only feasible solution would be if both sides agree on considering LOC as actual border and then scale down the military presence. I know it would not address many so called "human rights" issue in Kashmir (which might not even exits) but it would be a politically accepted solution for people of both countries. India would want to divert it energies and resources away from Kashmir and Pakistan has a lot of problems to deal with in their own country. It would be a win-win solution for all the people (including Kashmiri people) of the region.

 

LAHORIJERRY

6:59 AM ET

November 11, 2009

"As far as UN resolution on

"As far as UN resolution on Kashmir is concerned it is history."

Whose daddy died and left you in charge?

 

SSB

6:49 AM ET

November 9, 2009

kashmir in the af-pak equation

I think what's being missed here is the will of the Kashmiri people. What do they want? Certainly not to go to Pakistan. Historically, there is little or no meeting ground between the two people - neither politically nor in terms of religion. Yes, a majority of Kashmiris are Muslims - but no, they have never been followers of orthodox Islam. They're more comfortable with gentle Sufism. Ask them whether they would like to stay with India...they would probably say yes - if the choice is limited to either going to Pakistan or staying with India. However, I believe there is a 3rd viable option which the Indian government is also exploring - autonomy. I think the Indian government should be left alone to come to a workable agreement with Kashmiris. America should stay out - and so should Pakistan.

 

LAHORIJERRY

7:02 AM ET

November 11, 2009

Maybe the worlds largest

Maybe the worlds largest democracy should honor its committment to the UN and hold a plebicite in Kashmir.as you say majority will opt for India..so whats the delay?

 

REVOLUTIONARY.INDIAN

9:35 AM ET

November 9, 2009

The existence of Pakistan is itself a passing phase

Being a right wing supporter I would wish to point out that the creation of pakistan was itself an unnatural act which was commited for solely sufficing three egos. One the ego of authority hugry Jinnah and his muslim league, two the ego of authority hoarding Nehru and his congress Party, three the ego of the then still empire hungry british. But the larger populace didnt long for it and would have been much better without it. Thus the manifestation of a nation on the pretext of "islamic existence" is a farce and was inflammed by a priviliged elite class in the name of ALLAH. When the creation of a thing is itself through deceit and greed how would the thing's existence be?? The right within the then divided India would have been consoling themselves with the KARMA theory which states "what goes forth comes back". For all of those non indians One question i will ask is, For an India that solved the east pakistan problem, do you think couldnt it solve the tiny kashmir problem? the answer is We can solve? but We dont want to. You will ask Why? Well! If we solved then pakistan would channel its energy for prosperity. All we want is that the fuedal structure in pakistan (the combination of uniformed and ununiformed elite calss)which got installed itself and digged itself deep in over the years has to be thrown out in a bloddy phase by its own people. The we indians would step in seriously. The wolrd will only then get to know that all happenings arent for a song

 

REVOLUTIONARY.INDIAN

9:56 AM ET

November 9, 2009

Watch out for a bloody civil war in Pakistan

With the present goings on as expected by us(Indian) in pakistan, one thing is sure, The karma theory stands bright " what you sow is what you reap". During Zia's period they sowed "we are a purely islamic powerhouse" "those who challenge us are to be crushed as they would be infidels". The seed has bloomed into attitudes that puzzles all in the world who are watching Pakistan. Even fellow pakistanis are confused as to why their own countrymen are beasty and for what? The present phase of an economicaly fragile, authoritatively disintegrated, socially turbulent, administratively corrupt, religously wild, ethnically amok, perceptionally confused pakistan is the last phase before which it slips into a complete anarchy and chaos. This present phase is raising eyebrows across the world. I would request all to keep their anxiety and emotions reserved for a little while for the next forthcoming phase which would be bloodiest. As witnessed in africa the world would then wash it aside as a negative history.

 

ZATHRAS

12:30 PM ET

November 9, 2009

Paging Mr. Gross

Well, Joshua Gross has posted his essay urging American mediation of the Kashmir problem, and comments on it have also been posted. I urge him to read them. I mean, honestly, just listen to these damn people. Does he seriously think putting the United States in the middle of this interminable dispute is a good idea?

 

SMCI60652

5:29 PM ET

November 9, 2009

hahah

You just said what I was thinking. These two childish, moronic, pathetic excuse for 'nations' make me sick... and I'm FROM one of them!

The US should stay as far away from this idiotic hissy fit as possible.

 

WBEENO

3:24 PM ET

November 9, 2009

Amazing

Wow, tell meh thats not the craziest thing yew ever seen!

Jess
www.privacy-stuff.be.tc

 

FUKRA

3:53 PM ET

November 9, 2009

Mr. Gross Grossly misstates the facts

Mr Gross states that "Furthermore, U.S. support of India's nuclear program, despite their flouting of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, reinforced the perception of a double standard that unfairly favored India..."

As he surely must know, India (and Pakistan, for that matter) is NOT a signitory to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. How can you accuse someone of "flouting" a treaty they did not sign?

It is grating on the nerves of most Indians when people who are so obviously out of their depth try to "help" us.

 

SMCI60652

5:42 PM ET

November 9, 2009

Flouting

I'm pretty sure that by 'flouting' he was refering to the very fact that you stated.

"...their flouting of the NPT" means their 'not signing it' because they 'scoffed at it' or 'disdained it.'

Don't correct someone's English if you don't speak it too well yourself.

It makes you look "out of your depth."

 

PKPHILIP

3:43 AM ET

November 10, 2009

Wrong

Thank you for the English lesson, but it appears that you missed the point.

Mr.Gross's statements seems to indicate that India violated the terms of the NPT - and that would be a serious issue if India was a signatory. But since India isn't a signatory, it makes no sense to hold them accountable to the NPT - this, I believe, was the original poster's argument which you failed to grasp.

 

SMCI60652

11:33 AM ET

November 10, 2009

I'm happy to school you

I'm happy to school you anytime you need.

The author's statement doesn't "seem" to indicate anything. It simply makes the point that the Bush administration's colaboration on nuclear energy, in spite of India's refusing to sign the NPT, is a double standard.

The original poster's argument is not only based in his misunderstanding of the article, but then he goes on to bash the author for being ignorant, which in itself is beyond stupid.

I get you peoples' thought pattern though:

Don't like what the author says > mis-represent what he actually says > and consider him ignorant b/c of the preceding two.

Really astute.

 

JOSHUAROBERT144

1:23 AM ET

November 10, 2009

A belated reply

This is a fascinating dialogue, and I apologize for not being able to jump in sooner. I don’t claim to be an expert on Kashmir or South Asia…far from it. The purpose of this commentary was to provoke some discussion on Kashmir, a debate that sadly is more or less absent from the mainstream media in the U.S.

Excuse me if I dodge the thornier issues of the legality of the Indian troop presence in Kashmir and the long deferred plebiscite of the Kashmiri people (in both Indian and Pakistani occupied Kashmir). So rather than waste more precious space further entrenching myself and defending my position, allow me to share some more thoughts and pose a series of questions…

I think most of the commentators here would acknowledge that the rivalry between Pakistan and India—regardless of its impact on American national security and regardless of which party is more to blame—destabilizes South Asia and spills over beyond the borders of India and Pakistan. Tens of thousands of U.S. troops are in Afghanistan for the foreseeable future. We are caught in the middle of this antagonism and dealing with the spillover effects (which is not to say that “fixing” Kashmir will “fix” Afghanistan or that there aren’t numerous factors completely unrelated to India and Pakistan that have eroded security in Afghanitsan).

The enduring rivalry inhibits both nations from realizing their full potential, forces both countries to maintain bloated militaries that distort civil-military relations, and empowers extremist actors in both countries who dehumanize the enemy, further perpetuating the conflict.

History cannot simply be wished away. The underlying dynamics detectable in the comments section would suggest that despite the best efforts of the more pragmatic elements of both the Pakistani and Indian governments to normalize relations, suspicion and anger continue to smolder.

Short of the ambitious policy I’ve proposed, what can the U.S. do to improve relations between Pakistan and India?

Is the status quo as good as it gets? Rather than dodging the question every time it is asked, is there any way that top U.S. policymakers could address the issue in a more constructive, proactive manner? Is U.S. policy in India and Pakistan ideal?
What course correction, if any, is desirable?

According to Steve Coll (again, referencing his article for the New Yorker: http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2009/back_channel_11191 ) the Indian and Pakistani governments came very close to a shared understanding on Kashmir through a bilateral backchannel. This would imply that the distance between the two governments is not, as Zathras suggets, a “chasm”. I believe that the U.S. can be the bridge—behind the scenes if necessary—between the two (or three) versions of a just settlement on Kashmir. I defer to the writers in the comments section: Is it possible that a U.S. role could allow Pakistan and/or India to save face when making concessions? Would it be more politically toxic for an Indian politician to be perceived as making concessions to the Americans or to a Pakistani (or vice versa)? Rather than reject the concept out of hand, I think it is worth exploring these component parts.

Grant brings up an interesting point in referencing China. Does the U.S. play the regional dynamics here with an eye toward a looming confrontation with China? I’ve heard this argument made, but \ crafting a strategy around countering China would be morally repugnant with tens of thousands of troops on the ground in Afghanistan. We should not be cementing alliances with India to check China; the U.S. strategy in South Asia should revolve around maintaining a regional balance by cultivating relationships with pragmatists in both India and Pakistan that are committed to a stable and sovereign Afghanistan. Afghanistan, considering our sacrifices in blood and treasure to date, must be at the center of U.S. diplomacy in the region. I believe that this means more active diplomatic engagement in India and Pakistan, which will be facilitated by progress on Kashmir. Another recent piece that I wrote in the Christian Science Monitor speaks to these themes: http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1013/p09s01-coop.html

Talwar insists that pursuing a tougher line on Kashmir would “sound the death knell for U.S.-India ties”. Is that assured? I believe that the relationship between the U.S. and India, which has grown exponentially stronger in the last decade, will be able to survive a shift from the status quo, much as the relationship with Israel has survived recent tensions over settlement construction. What is at stake? What does the U.S. lose from a falling out with India? What does India lose? What forces in Indian political culture might resist the temptation to freeze out the U.S. should a more activist Kashmir policy be pursued?

I am intrigued by Sreekanth’s comment. Do others agree that if a plebiscite in Kashmir is pursued that other princely states will also demand the right to secede? Or is Kashmir—with its unique history and contentious relationship to the Indian and Pakistani military presence—a special case?

Zathras has called attention to the extreme differences of opinion on Kashmir, of which this back and forth has been a microcosm. But any meditation—even a small-scale mediation in an American courtroom—is replete with excessive posturing and positional bargaining. The art lies in getting the parties to perceive shared interests that are not immediately obvious. Do both Pakistan and India have a mutual interest in a demilitarized border, a de-escalation of the conflict, a line of communication to prevent terrorists from sabotaging efforts at rapprochement, stability in the region? I believe they do.

 

PKPHILIP

3:55 AM ET

November 10, 2009

The complaint

Mr.Gross, you make good points but you heavily underestimate the magnitude of the India-Pakistan conflict over Kashmir.

Your suggestion that US should first help India and Pakistan solve their long standing issues over Kashmir so that Pakistan can start focussing on the more weightier issue of the Taliban problem indicates your lack of understanding of the gravity of the India-Pakistan problem.

The India-Pakistan conflict has claimed millions of lives and has lasted over 60 years. Do you think this can be solved by a single US administration? Which do you think is an easier problem for US to solve - destroying the Taliban or solving the India-Pakistan conflict?

The answer to this question will indicate the problem with the conclusions you have drawn in your article.

 

SMCI60652

1:32 PM ET

November 10, 2009

understanding local pre-suppositions

The conflict in Kashmir has only had tangible consequences in AfPak and India.

Many of the commentators here seem more concerned with defending the ideological positions of their homeland and less concerned with the strategic position and safety of the 60,000 of our fellow citizens sitting over there.

You're right in observing that Kashmir has become the cancerous sore that perpetuates the cycle of ignorance in the region and over inflates the centrality of the armed services (particularly in Pakistan). But you have to realize that after 60 years of conflict, the military culture and economy has become inextricably linked to the very essence of the countries. If tommorrow the Pakistani military were to lose its very raison d'etre and thus its funding, it would have an enormous impact on employment, services delivery, housing, and critical industrial sectors which are key parts of society. I'd like not to believe that this was a deliberate design on anyone's part, it's just the way things happened to evolve over several decades.

As for assisting the more 'pragmatic sides,' I can't speak for the Indians, but compromise of the Kashmir issue has usually been the area of civilian administrations (until Musharraf). It's part of the perception that Civilians are essentially weak and foolish and will undermine the nation's strategic position. It's the reason why foreign policy is almost exclusively the domain of the armed services - an issue that is causing tremendous upheavel within the establishment in light of certain clauses in the EPPA.

Short of the ambitious policy I’ve proposed, what can the U.S. do to improve relations between Pakistan and India?
Is the status quo as good as it gets? Rather than dodging the question every time it is asked, is there any way that top U.S. policymakers could address the issue in a more constructive, proactive manner? Is U.S. policy in India and Pakistan ideal? What course correction, if any, is desirable?

I think a good starting point would be for the US to not only understand, but communicate back the understanding to both sides that they not only get, but appreciate the reservations, suspicions, and distrust of both sides towards each other. So far the liberal intelligentsia in Washington (CAP, CNAS, etc.) seem to have a dismissive attitude towards the rich abundance of what they term 'conspiracy theories' that the populations hold towards their neighbors.

Is it possible that a U.S. role could allow Pakistan and/or India to save face when making concessions? Would it be more politically toxic for an Indian politician to be perceived as making concessions to the Americans or to a Pakistani (or vice versa)? Rather than reject the concept out of hand, I think it is worth exploring these component parts.

I think I speak for both sides in saying that it is desirable that the US 'butt out' in demanding any consessions from either party. It's (almost literally) suicide in Pakistan, and India has to be respected as an emerging global power that shouldn't be slapped around by a nation so incompetent as to be bogged down in two wars and making obvious errors in each. I think the reaction on both fronts would be "Who the hell are YOU?" At best, apeal to the better angels and wallets of both sides, and stay out of the public eye.

Does the U.S. play the regional dynamics here with an eye toward a looming confrontation with China?

The China issue is a bit more complicated than meets the eye. In the world of realist perceptions, yes, we would try to box in China by balancing power in India. But this view forgets the fact that both India and China have an overlapping vested stake in Afghanistan and keeping the Pashtun dominated Taliban out of control - and thus serving as a safe-haven for Uighar militants. And it also discounts the fact that we, along with China, have simultaneously been allied with Pakistan to the detriment of left-leaning India in the past.

I am intrigued by Sreekanth’s comment. Do others agree that if a plebiscite in Kashmir is pursued that other princely states will also demand the right to secede? Or is Kashmir—with its unique history and contentious relationship to the Indian and Pakistani military presence—a special case?

I concur with you on this one. It seems more of a 'henny penny' slippery slope than a plausible scenario.

The art lies in getting the parties to perceive shared interests that are not immediately obvious. Do both Pakistan and India have a mutual interest in a demilitarized border, a de-escalation of the conflict, a line of communication to prevent terrorists from sabotaging efforts at rapprochement, stability in the region? I believe they do.

You'd have to ask the beneficiaries of the Military economy and the conflict-driven poltiical economy in both countries.

 

L1W0LF

6:49 AM ET

November 10, 2009

some disagreements

I had some strong comments initially, but self-moderated them :) in an attempt to have a civil dialogue.
IMHO, Its naive to assume that the antipathy that the Pakistani military-intelligence establishment has for India will dissipate overnight if the Kashmir issue were resolved.
The reality is that the identity of Pakistan lies in its "non-Indianness" (Pakistan = Not India). This means the ruling elite of Pakistan will always push for conflict with India -- Kashmir is only an excuse. If we take that excuse away, they will find a new one anyway
Besides, making any concessions on Kashmir will seriously undermine the Secular fabric of India, and will give strength to Hindu fundamentalists within India who want to create a Hindu theocracy -- not to mention exacerbating the various sectarian tendencies based on language, caste etc. For this reason, the Indian government will never agree to ceding any control over Kashmir -- it will not solve any problem, and thinking it would, is the result of a very shallow analysis.

 

HYDER ALI

7:32 AM ET

November 10, 2009

Biased analysis without facts

Joshua, I am afraid your article is rather naive on the assumption that Pakistan is serious about negotiating a just settlement in the same way Hitler was serious about discussing a just settlement on Sudetenland. I take it you are an American. How would you like it if my country, UK, requested handing over of New England states and demanded mediation until USA returns the province to us? What do you think about our insistence on a country that would not only agree to mediation but agree to our demand? Also, let us suppose that our demand has a religious sanction and my politicians are competing with each other to prove they are more Anglican than their fellow politicians. Therefore, none of my country’s politicians/generals can back down on our demand to include New England within UK. Pakistan's demand is based on Islamic principles of conquest as given in the Islamic scriptures, Quran, Hadith, Tafsir(Quran commentary) and Sira(biography of prophet Muhammed). No Islamic state worth its salt can refrain from conquest, if it is feasible. No Islamic state would refrain from demanding areas it has formerly ruled. This would be whole of India, Spain, Portugal, Eastern Europe, Austria and Caucusus area. Then, France, UK and USA should be on the negotiating table to be handed over to Islamic state. That is the demand of Islamic state based on historical facts and ideological compunction based on Islamic scriptures. Winston Churchill said an appeaser is like someone who hopes that if he feeds the crocodile he won’t end up as its meal. But, the crocodile would end up eating the person feeding it. Do you think we, as a free world, should agree to forcing India and Pakistan negotiate over any territory?

 

DEMOCRATICALLY

8:01 AM ET

November 10, 2009

History

The writer has raised so many issues, starting with a need to resolve Kashmir, so that AfPak could be settled. Then further bringing it down to those warming up Indo-US ties. However, this is not to say that India doesnt need friends, especially in a situation when it being a democracy is surrounded by anarchies. Yet, India would never want players but only spectators of this game, just watching, even if from a very close distance. The reason being that India sees this problem rooted in the pre1947 history, while Pak army and its Western allies, see the problem rooted in post1947 history.

India has always suggested to first begin with increased trade & commerce between the two countries before letting other issues fall in line. But to the discomfort of their dictators that would have made the Pak army redundant without an enemy. The question is, why over the last many years of its friendship with Pak, the West has not suggested/asked Pakistan to reciprocate India's 'Most Favored Nation' status!

Therefore, it would also be naive to convince India by saying that the West has no interest in the region other than AfPak. Notwithstanding our rhetoric media etc,inspite of historical blunders, India has always recognized Pakistan, and desired it to be a vibrant neighbor for our own interest. But it deliberately chose to be a rogue nation, nurtured with greenback.

I have always maintained that from Dhaka to Kabul its an extended family, 5000yrs old. THE SOLUTION HAS TO BEFOUND SOMEWHERE IN THE PRE-1947 AND NOT IN THE POST-1947 HISTORY. At the same time, India has no intention of challenging the sovereignty of any of our neighbors. The solution only lies in starting with large scale trade & commerce in the region, including between India China region. Everything, including Kashmir would fall in line accordingly. There is no other solution.

Let All the people from Dhaka to Kabul rejoice the fruits of India's market economy and participate in it.
Its not emotional but a practical point, the germ of which lies in pre 1947 history. But the West would only give heed to post 1947.

@democratically

 

NAJAM

3:34 PM ET

November 15, 2009

Excellent debate

Kudos to mr.gross for kicking off this debate.

I think that we shud go back to the principle of self determination as recognised by all free people & the UN with the inherent rights to asscoicate, and self govern.

This is the fundamental principle achieved over centuries of struggle and thought.

So what is the big deal if it is applied in Kashmir, it has already been applied in South Asia in 1947 and two countries emerged from it.

yes there is animosity between pakistan & india, but that shudnt deny any people within these countries to associate or disassociate.

So IF the US thinks it needs to help them focus on the Kashmir problem then without tending to be squeamish about the matter THEN it shud take a stand on principle to resolve the issue.